I don’t think we’re going to agree here.
Most users are not going to support both platforms. By taking what was exclusively a Stack and converting it to Elements, Stacks is eliminated. Existing Stacks users remain unaffected, but Elements now gains the business that was Stacks.
You’re absolutely right, most users will not use both apps. But they should be able to use the tools they previously purchased for use in RapidWeaver + Stacks and use them in their choice of the two upcoming apps.
Customers did not ask for this split so they should not be punished for wanting to use their previously purchased addons in one app or the other. When you start using Stacks Pro you will be able to use Foundry with it. And when someone else chooses to use Elements they too will have the ability to use the tools they bought from me there as well.
Which they can, RW Classic + Stacks which RM themselves stated will continue so there’s no need to convert stacks to Elements unless your looking to remove Stacks. RW Elements is a new platform, that clearly is not a continuation of the old one as it’s missing the Stacks component.
That’s also a choice as I stated in my original reply. Will Stacks continue to work in RWC as infinitum? We have no clue. An OS update might preclude that sometime down the line right?
I’ve said it many times — I want you and other customers to choose the platform of the two that you want to use and still be able to make use of addons you purchased. It is not any more complex than that really.
I have to dip out to make Saturday night dinner so if I don’t respond to any further replies until Monday when I’m back at work please just know I’ll get back to you ASAP.
As I already stated on the RW4ALL forums: I think it’s a great move from developers, to convert their stacks to elements (or allow RMS to convert them) to make sure that their customers will be able to use whatever platform they choose to create websites with. Be it Stacks App or RW Elements. Punishing developers because they offer this option to their paying customers… that’s just childish and hits the wrong person. But it seems to show the attitude of quite some people after this whole RW/Stacks conflict emerged.
Possibly not, but that’s a RM Yourhead issue. Currently it does work and there is no reason to migrate users from Stacks to Elements. Elements should build its own user base on the merits of its own system. As a new product Elements should be developed using the Elements API and sold in the Elements store. You’re advocating kickstarting this by moving users from Stacks to Elements and taking a mature product (Stacks) and putting it into a new product (Elements). This will effectively remove Stacks from the equation. How you can’t see that this is at least a little bit suspect escapes me.
I appreciate that all of your Stacks users are happy using Stacks and more than likely wouldn’t move to Elements were you not offering migrating their Stacks. I’m also surprised that you cannot see RMs sherlocking of Stacks. The fact that RM have built in a Stacks converter should sound alarm bells. Stacks is not RMs product and they have no right to do so.
You need to remember that Stacks and Elements are not owned by the same company. Each is its own development environment. Stacks has built a mature product in over a decade. Elements has not even been released yet. It’s hardly fair for Elements to simply take what Stacks has developed. Elements should build its own system and its own elements that should be purchased separately from the Elements store.
My response is far from childish, I simply cannot support sherlocking nor migrating users from Stacks to Elements at the expense of Stacks.
just by the way … you can see the dependence of RW and stacks? it was not a perfect symbiosis. for a wide variety of reasons
I think it’s absolutely normal for every company to have to make a decision at some point about whether they want to continue in this way.
now Stacks and RW can go their own way without depending on each other. both can take new paths and can grow now. and the best thing is - the children can choose where they want to go in the future.
No. @elixirgraphics is advocating supporting his CUSTOMERS’ choices. Perhaps you should lobby them instead.
I assume, since you’re so anti-‘Sherlocking’, that you don’t use any Apple products? Watson, anyone? Clearly you do, so…
Use Microsoft products? They ‘Sherlocked’ Lotus 1-2-3 for Excel. Word? WordPerfect.
It happens. Businesses need to remove risk. That goes for both RM and Yourhead. All Adam is doing is allowing his customers to make their own decisions, rather than some, who are forcing their customers down a specific path.
Whilst I don’t like the way this all came about - and have been vocal with Dan at RM - he needs to protect his business from being reliant on a one-man-band, and one who, by his own admission, is not in the best of health.
I’d just move on if I were you. You’re aiming your ire at the wrong person (if indeed ire is appropriate at all). RW4ALL will give you the echo chamber you’re looking for.
Edit to add: Let’s see what the “high principled” stacks developer lynch-mob ACTUALLY do when the new market emerges. You really think they’ll put so-called principles over business sense, when push comes to shove? Money talks.
I’m 100% with Adam on this - it’s my choice as a customer wether I continue with RW and Elements or the soon (but probably not that soon) to be released Stacks app.
Adam as the ‘developer’ can (and will) allow his products to be converted to elements and also develop for stacks, and allow customers that choice. That is his public position on it and I respect him for that. The level of support and future product direction he gives as a developer gives me confidence to buy his products going forward. What platform they work on is less interesting to me.
The petty demonising of RM and developers who don’t seem to support the ‘stacks app’ or shout about the injustices of RM as seen on the RW4all forum is just childish and tiresome. I’ve seen some develops crow about not taking products to elements - let’s see how that pans out if older versions of RW stop working before there is a stacks product to produce for.
I don’t know what went on being the scenes and am not really bothered by it all; if you base your whole business on someone’s product then there is always a risk that they can change the relationship of it, leaving you vulnerable.
I want a stable product that I can use Foundry 3 on and if that product comes out sooner by RW and elements I’ll use that with F3 products. I may also try a stacks app out if it ever appears, and see what one works best for me. A many team company like realmac will probably be able to offer longer term continuity to one that is run by one person.
There were several flaws with the RM business model. I’m not a developer, and I only occasionally develop a site for another person. My income is not reliant on web design at all. But over the past 7-10 years this is a conversation I’d often have with another person:
Other Person: I like your site. What did you use?
Me: Thanks. I use RapidWeaver.
Other Person: What does it cost?
Me: About $80.
OP: So for $80 I could make a site like yours?
Me: No. Then you’d need to buy this cool add-on called Stacks. It’s $40.
OP: So for $120 I could make a site like yours?
Me: No. Then you’d need to buy … Foundry or some other set of stacks depending how far back one goes. It’s a $100 for all the extras.
OP: So for $220 I could make a site like yours?
Me: No. Then you need to set everything up with a hosting company. That’s about $80 a year. And you need to be careful choosing a hosting company.
OP: This is all way too much. Thanks for the info, but Squarespace or Wix is so much simpler.
… and they were always correct!
This combo of needing to buy more and more and more, plus pay for hosting in the face of other options that were simpler, more self-complete, was just too compelling to so many folks. The choice became easy: use Wix, use SquareSpace. Then Blocs came along and that snatched up several of the more technically inclined.
So, put simply, things could not stay as they were. And that was clear a loooong time ago.
Now let’s add to this “cocktail” two folks who seem to know little about business, and much less about good communication skills. Nothing could go wrong here, eh? If communication skills were ranked on a 0 to 100 scale, I’d guess the combined skills of both parties is about 1. Two very poor communicators … it wasn’t a matter of “if” something was going to go wrong, just “when”.
It’s a sad story, but also completely predictable given all the elements that went into this emotional cocktail. The initial product a customer buys needs to be more complete, more able to make a solid website, just on its own. If not, both future products will die, especially given the outside competition.
Many of the whiny RW web designers complaining about the current-state-of-affairs are riding on a “freebie” that most other designers don’t have. In the WordPress world you need to pay for an add-on product based on how many sites you are going to use it on. It’s not a strict 1-by-1 pricing, but typically you purchase for 1 website, a more expensive license for 10 websites, and so on. In other words, developers of addons get more revenue the more that designers use their products on new websites. Yet in the RW world it’s 1 price if you use the product on 1 website or 10,000. It’s not how the rest of the web world works. So there’s an inherently unstable and weak business model at play relative to other products. For the designers it’s great! For the developers of RW, Stacks, and stacks it’s a very weak business approach for sustainability over many years.
… all of which is to say, there needed to be a self-correction. Did it happen in the best way? Absolutely not. Is it completely understandable given the 2 central flawed figures in this situation? Absolutely yes.
Thank you Adam for respecting your customer’s abilities to make their own decision instead of treating them like children.
I agree with @mitchellm about trying to explain how Rapidweaver fits with Stacks and then a Framework plus other 3rd party stacks. To a new user it’s confusing and convoluted.
It was a lot simpler when I started with Rapidweaver 5 I just bought Blocks, selected a theme and that was it.
Perhaps this split will turn out best for both Realmac and Yourhead in the future as it will simplify things somewhat. I hope both apps do well whenever they’re released.
There’s nothing wrong with Adam deciding to support all his customers in my opinion and by that same token I don’t think there’s anything wrong with developers who’ve decided to avoid Elements. Everyone has got their reasons.
Let’s see how it plays out. I’m quite excited about the release of 2 new web design apps in the future. As of right now Rapidweaver Classic and Stacks 5.1.1 are working fine for me.
Just a quick update for those that might read back through this thread. The user @svsmailus asked me to remove his account. To retain previous posts, per his approval, I’ve used Discourse’s anonymize feature, which strips the user’s data from the profile but retains their posts as to not leave gaps in discussion threads. I think that is important so that their previous posts and opinions can still be seen. Just wanted to be transparent with everyone.
TBH I have been hearing about the Stacks App for over a year now. I have been looking at the same website saying “Due out soon”. I haven’t seen any updates.
I think it’s all discussed on Discord. That’s what I can gather from another support site….
I’m willing to try the stacks app out when it eventually comes out but also reticent to throw my lot in with a one person developer. It’s been fortunate that the older version of RW stills works with latest Apple software.
That’s really my concern too.
Part of my livelihood depends on a few software products working, including my webdesign tooling. I can’t serve a large portion of my customers without it.
That’s why my biggest scare is that Yourhead is a one-man show - If Isaiah is, for some reason, down for the count, StacksPro’s development (or maintenance after release) will come to a halt.
So that’s why I bet on both horses: Elements and StacksPro. And having my go-to framework available in both is a boon that can not be underestimated IMHO.
Cheers,
Erwin
I wouldn’t let one-man operations scare you off of an app. Many mac developers are one-man shows. Including myself.
That’s a very good point. You however keep a very public and responsive presence that installs confidence in your customers. 
Ordinarily, perhaps. Sadly, Isaiah is mostly very quiet (sometimes “disappearing” for months on end), and by his own admission, isn’t in the best of health.
I really, REALLY want Stacks Pro (and Elements) to prosper, because that gives me, as a consumer, CHOICES.
However, as someone who creates sites for our own businesses, I have to consider Isaiah as a potential single-point-of-failure, and therefore a risk.
If I was a web designer, and therefore relying on Stacks Pro to underpin my business, I’d consider that an even bigger risk.
Time will tell. I genuinely feel that any stacks developer who has an ounce of commercial awareness, and cares about their customer base (existing and future) should support as many platforms as possible.
Until Supermarkets accept “principles” as payment for groceries, that’s just the smart move.
I’m Not instigating.
you make some very good points